Energy FAQ

Question:

After reading this, I’m wondering isn’t there a difference between filtered water and softened water? Bonnie NJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects > >of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium > Eh?  ppm is ppm, doesn’t matter how big the body of water is. > FWIW, I certainly noticed (after about a year) the (negative) effect of softened > water on my indoor potted plants — had to do some major flushing of the soil > with unsoftened water to get rid of the accumulated whatevers.  A couple of > plants never recovered from the root damage. >         Of course, hardness isn’t the only thing that can affect plants, pH is >     pretty important, too.  My father had major problems with his outdoor taps >     coming straight out of the well(pre-filter stage): >         a) some coniferous evergreen bushes growing next to the house had some >            serious brownout on a regular basis.  They’re known to like acidic >            conditions, and being next to the 5 yo foundation, plus the highly >            alkaline water he was watering them with was like a one-two punch. >            After switching the outdoor taps so they were post-filter, they >            greened right up.  No problems with them browning out since. >         b) Dad -could not- get azaleas to last more than one season, especially >            the last one(a Golden Lights). He’d plant them, they’d do OK for >            the summer/4-5 months, and then they’d keel over.  They -must- have >            acidic conditions, and even with dad using some acidifying fertilizer >            they just kept dying.   Now that the outdoor taps are on filtered >            water, he’s got a (second, replacement) Golden Lights that’s going on >            2 years, and bulking out pretty nicely. >         I could see soil mineralization becoming an issue if you’re living in arid >     conditions, but if you’re living in an area(like New Hampshire, USA), where >     you can expect regular rainfall, I’d expect all that to be leached out & kept >     under control. >         Also, FWIW(and more closely related to your message), Dad’s been >     watering all his houseplants with filtered water nonstop for the 4-5 >     years he’s had the filter.  No problems so far… (crosses fingers). How >     long did it take you before you started noticing problems? > I suppose if one just did a top-off of a pond (or aquarium) without ever doing > water changes, there’d be negative effects from the softened water.  Of course, > there are negative effects of just topping off even with unsoftened water, so > seems like a wash, IMHO. > — >   Bob Kenney

Response:

> After reading this, I’m wondering isn’t there a difference > between filtered water and softened water?

Heck, there is a difference between filtered water and filtered water Some water filters are capable of softening the water, but it is normally only going from very hard to hard. -stacy — You’ll see it’s all a show. Keep ‘em laughing as you go. Just remember that the last laugh is on you.         – Monty Python _The Life Of Brian_ Millions Consulting Limited

Response:

>After reading this, I’m wondering isn’t there a difference >between filtered water and softened water? >Bonnie >NJ

Lots.  A water softener exchanges ions of  calcium and magnesium for ions of sodium (sometimes potassium).  I researched it a couple years ago when I was looking at solutions to using my hard water for making homemade beer.  For that purpose, particularly with my already high sodium water, it was a no go.  For a pond, you are taking out the calcium carbonate that acts as a ph buffer, so I’d expect wide ph swings.  Makes fish unhappy.  Low calcium and magnesium levels may cause other problems. garyr Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.

Response:

> don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects >of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium

Eh?  ppm is ppm, doesn’t matter how big the body of water is. FWIW, I certainly noticed (after about a year) the (negative) effect of softened water on my indoor potted plants — had to do some major flushing of the soil with unsoftened water to get rid of the accumulated whatevers.  A couple of plants never recovered from the root damage. I suppose if one just did a top-off of a pond (or aquarium) without ever doing water changes, there’d be negative effects from the softened water.  Of course, there are negative effects of just topping off even with unsoftened water, so seems like a wash, IMHO.

Response:

> > don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects >of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium > Eh?  ppm is ppm, doesn’t matter how big the body of water is. > FWIW, I certainly noticed (after about a year) the (negative) effect of softened > water on my indoor potted plants — had to do some major flushing of the soil > with unsoftened water to get rid of the accumulated whatevers.  A couple of > plants never recovered from the root damage.

        Of course, hardness isn’t the only thing that can affect plants, pH is     pretty important, too.  My father had major problems with his outdoor taps     coming straight out of the well(pre-filter stage):         a) some coniferous evergreen bushes growing next to the house had some            serious brownout on a regular basis.  They’re known to like acidic            conditions, and being next to the 5 yo foundation, plus the highly            alkaline water he was watering them with was like a one-two punch.            After switching the outdoor taps so they were post-filter, they            greened right up.  No problems with them browning out since.         b) Dad -could not- get azaleas to last more than one season, especially            the last one(a Golden Lights). He’d plant them, they’d do OK for            the summer/4-5 months, and then they’d keel over.  They -must- have            acidic conditions, and even with dad using some acidifying fertilizer            they just kept dying.   Now that the outdoor taps are on filtered            water, he’s got a (second, replacement) Golden Lights that’s going on            2 years, and bulking out pretty nicely.         I could see soil mineralization becoming an issue if you’re living in arid     conditions, but if you’re living in an area(like New Hampshire, USA), where     you can expect regular rainfall, I’d expect all that to be leached out & kept     under control.         Also, FWIW(and more closely related to your message), Dad’s been     watering all his houseplants with filtered water nonstop for the 4-5     years he’s had the filter.  No problems so far… (crosses fingers). How     long did it take you before you started noticing problems? > I suppose if one just did a top-off of a pond (or aquarium) without ever doing > water changes, there’d be negative effects from the softened water.  Of course, > there are negative effects of just topping off even with unsoftened water, so > seems like a wash, IMHO.

–   Bob Kenney

Response:

oh yes, they do have pellets, but I have been warned off the pellets as they are more likely to contain additives in the pellet.  INgrid > in Milwaukee the water softener salt is the solar salt.  in plastic bags. > always good to check carefully tho.   INgrid > >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt. >Here in NJ the solar salt is only crystal, the water >softener salt is usually pellets.  You’ve always specified >crystals.

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

And here I thought this thread was going to be about "hard water" i.e. frozen ponds. BTW, I am moving and only have 2 half barrels to deal with and they are not frozen. Better news – get an in ground (or semi) again! randyinaloha

> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

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Response:

Thanks again for the advice.  I’m gonna put the bypass on to fill it!  Of course the hole isn’t even dug yet but I’m getting spring fever.  I removed the sod when we had a record high 66 degree day in Indiana!  Now I have to stare at the muddy piece of ground for a while.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

Response:

> in Milwaukee the water softener salt is the solar salt.  in plastic bags. > always good to check carefully tho.   INgrid >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt.

Here in NJ the solar salt is only crystal, the water softener salt is usually pellets.  You’ve always specified crystals. — Bonnie NJ http://hpphoto.com/home/ViewMyAlbum.asp?coll_id=876614 http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm

Response:

The water conditioner’s brand name is Kinetico. It has a lot of fine selling points, and we’ve been very happy with it.  The only thing you need to do to it is remember to add the salt once in a while! Lee

> wowowo… cool.  I am planning on a water softener and then an RO unit, > together they will be bocu expensive to buy, not that bad to rent, but the > RO unit doesnt put out much quantity per day.  where did you get the > conditioning unit?  INgrid >OK, mea culpa: I have a water CONDITIONER.  It removes

chlorine/chloramines – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->as well as all the other nasty stuff (and softens it in the process).  I >have no chlorine after the "conditioner", and LOADS prior!  It’s not as good >as reverse osmosis, but the next best thing.  For what we paid for it, it >should do SOMEthing!!! >Lee > List manager- Puregold > http://puregold.aquaria.net/ > http://drsolo.net > Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other > compensation for all the work, endorsements and > recommendations I make.  And my husband has the > bills to prove it!

Response:

> wowowo… cool.  I am planning on a water softener and then an RO unit, > together they will be bocu expensive to buy, not that bad to rent, but the > RO unit doesnt put out much quantity per day.  where did you get the > conditioning unit?  INgrid

an Aquarium Pharm. "Tap water purifier" will do almost the same job as RO but doesnt waste 90-95% like an RO does. for every 5 gals of treated RO water, 95 go down the drain. theres a list of nasties/metals etc. on the cart. that it takes out. — http://www.kencofish.com  401-781-9642 Importer/Exporter of Goldfish,Koi,rare Predators Shipping to legal states/countries only! Permalon liners, Oase & Supreme Pondmaster pumps make a no-cost donation to save the rain forrests here http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=981743017 Please Note: No trees or animals were harmed in the sending of this contaminant free message We do concede that a signicant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced.

Response:

in Milwaukee the water softener salt is the solar salt.  in plastic bags. always good to check carefully tho.   INgrid >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt.

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

wowowo… cool.  I am planning on a water softener and then an RO unit, together they will be bocu expensive to buy, not that bad to rent, but the RO unit doesnt put out much quantity per day.  where did you get the conditioning unit?  INgrid >OK, mea culpa: I have a water CONDITIONER.  It removes chlorine/chloramines >as well as all the other nasty stuff (and softens it in the process).  I >have no chlorine after the "conditioner", and LOADS prior!  It’s not as good >as reverse osmosis, but the next best thing.  For what we paid for it, it >should do SOMEthing!!! >Lee

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

>I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my >pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone >so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard >the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts.

Are you sure your outside faucets are softened?  Most installations I’ve seen only soften the indoor water. It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll save you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with softened water, either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health  in tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water)

Response:

>It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll>save >you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with softened>water, >either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health>in >tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water)

Several people here who like to add salt to the pond have even suggested using salt for water softeners.    Jerri                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

Response:

> >It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll>save >you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with > softened>water, >either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health>in >tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water) > Several people here who like to add salt to the pond have even suggested using > salt for water softeners.    Jerri >                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

No not water softener salt – Solar Salt. — Bonnie NJ http://hpphoto.com/home/ViewMyAlbum.asp?coll_id=876614 http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm

Response:

I don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium.   I wouldn’t be concerned about the savings from the price of salt.   The last 40 lb bag I bought was less than $4.   I also make it a point to maintain .02 to .1% salt in my pond. http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/464fs.pdf SRAC pub 464 talks about raising fish in quantity and production, indicating to me that would be ideal for fish growth.   They claim a catfish can tolerate 10 ppm hardness so long as the feed contains enough calcium and pH is above 6.5, but for other fish production they recommend higher hardness.  I would shoot for 100 to 250 ppm GH .  I seem to recall those numbers from somewhere, but can’t give you a reference at the moment.   Mine is only 90 ppm and in order to reach 100, I add gypsum (Plaster of Paris) for increased GH and baking soda for increased alkalinity.   Getting water hardness up is easier than lowering it. Regards, Hal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my >pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone >so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard >the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. >Are you sure your outside faucets are softened?  Most installations I’ve seen >only soften the indoor water. >It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll save >you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with softened water, >either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health  in >tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water)

Response:

I have a water softener, which I usually forget to turn off before I do water changes. On the initial fill, I did remember.  After that, I usually just top it off as necessary.  It eliminates the need for the chlorine removers, and the conditioner seems to remove some of the other impurities. My water tests out fine.  I’ve been meaning to get something to test the salinity (as a matter of curiosity), but folks add salt on purpose, so I don’t think the residual amount from the softener would hurt anything. I can’t taste it . . .  The only thing I can think of that might be detrimental would be the KH/GH buffering capabilities, but I put a big piece of limestone in the pond (which stops leaching at 8.0), so my PH is completely stable.  It will be interesting to see what the "chemists" say. Good luck! Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

Response:

anyone on city water (not their own well) must add dechlor to both the unsoftened water and softened water.  softening does not remove the chlorine.  there is nothing wrong with soft water as long as (you point out) some buffer is added back like dolomitic lime or limestones (but not plaster of paris or quicklime.)  some people do have such alkaline water that the Na levels are extremely high after softening, too high for GF.  If the water out of the tap before softening is 300 ppm or less hardness, then it is fine to be used.  if more, than a combination of water would probably be a good idea.  Ingrid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a water softener, which I usually forget to turn off before I do >water changes. On the initial fill, I did remember.  After that, I usually >just top it off as necessary.  It eliminates the need for the chlorine >removers, and the conditioner seems to remove some of the other impurities. >My water tests out fine.  I’ve been meaning to get something to test the >salinity (as a matter of curiosity), but folks add salt on purpose, so I >don’t think the residual amount from the softener would hurt anything. I >can’t taste it . . .  The only thing I can think of that might be >detrimental would be the KH/GH buffering capabilities, but I put a big piece >of limestone in the pond (which stops leaching at 8.0), so my PH is >completely stable.  It will be interesting to see what the "chemists" say. >Good luck! Lee > I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill >my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

OK, mea culpa: I have a water CONDITIONER.  It removes chlorine/chloramines as well as all the other nasty stuff (and softens it in the process).  I have no chlorine after the "conditioner", and LOADS prior!  It’s not as good as reverse osmosis, but the next best thing.  For what we paid for it, it should do SOMEthing!!! Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> anyone on city water (not their own well) must add dechlor to both the > unsoftened water and softened water.  softening does not remove the > chlorine.  there is nothing wrong with soft water as long as (you point > out) some buffer is added back like dolomitic lime or limestones (but not > plaster of paris or quicklime.)  some people do have such alkaline water > that the Na levels are extremely high after softening, too high for GF. If > the water out of the tap before softening is 300 ppm or less hardness, then > it is fine to be used.  if more, than a combination of water would probably > be a good idea.  Ingrid >I have a water softener, which I usually forget to turn off before I do >water changes. On the initial fill, I did remember.  After that, I usually >just top it off as necessary.  It eliminates the need for the chlorine >removers, and the conditioner seems to remove some of the other impurities. >My water tests out fine.  I’ve been meaning to get something to test the >salinity (as a matter of curiosity), but folks add salt on purpose, so I >don’t think the residual amount from the softener would hurt anything. I >can’t taste it . . .  The only thing I can think of that might be >detrimental would be the KH/GH buffering capabilities, but I put a big piece >of limestone in the pond (which stops leaching at 8.0), so my PH is >completely stable.  It will be interesting to see what the "chemists" say. >Good luck! Lee >> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill >my >> pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone >> so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard >> the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. >> Thanks, >> Adrian Bauer > List manager- Puregold > http://puregold.aquaria.net/ > http://drsolo.net > Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other > compensation for all the work, endorsements and > recommendations I make.  And my husband has the > bills to prove it!

Response:

>No not water softener salt – Solar Salt.

Well I sure am glad I don’t use salt then……:=)   Jerri                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

Response:

> >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt. > Well I sure am glad I don’t use salt then……:=)   Jerri >                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

FWIW Solar salt is used for water softners. — http://www.kencofish.com  401-781-9642 Importer/Exporter of Goldfish,Koi,rare Predators Shipping to legal states/countries only! Permalon liners, Oase & Supreme Pondmaster pumps make a no-cost donation to save the rain forrests here http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=981743017 Please Note: No trees or animals were harmed in the sending of this contaminant free message We do concede that a signicant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced.

Response:

I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. Thanks, Adrian Bauer

Response:

> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

Yes, if you can put it on by-pass do that.  If not shut it down.  I must do this every time I add water to my pond, just remember to turn it back on.  Soft water is great for washing and bathing, but not for the fish. — Bonnie NJ http://hpphoto.com/home/ViewMyAlbum.asp?coll_id=876614 http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm

Response:

After reading this, I’m wondering isn’t there a difference between filtered water and softened water? Bonnie NJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects > >of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium > Eh?  ppm is ppm, doesn’t matter how big the body of water is. > FWIW, I certainly noticed (after about a year) the (negative) effect of softened > water on my indoor potted plants — had to do some major flushing of the soil > with unsoftened water to get rid of the accumulated whatevers.  A couple of > plants never recovered from the root damage. >         Of course, hardness isn’t the only thing that can affect plants, pH is >     pretty important, too.  My father had major problems with his outdoor taps >     coming straight out of the well(pre-filter stage): >         a) some coniferous evergreen bushes growing next to the house had some >            serious brownout on a regular basis.  They’re known to like acidic >            conditions, and being next to the 5 yo foundation, plus the highly >            alkaline water he was watering them with was like a one-two punch. >            After switching the outdoor taps so they were post-filter, they >            greened right up.  No problems with them browning out since. >         b) Dad -could not- get azaleas to last more than one season, especially >            the last one(a Golden Lights). He’d plant them, they’d do OK for >            the summer/4-5 months, and then they’d keel over.  They -must- have >            acidic conditions, and even with dad using some acidifying fertilizer >            they just kept dying.   Now that the outdoor taps are on filtered >            water, he’s got a (second, replacement) Golden Lights that’s going on >            2 years, and bulking out pretty nicely. >         I could see soil mineralization becoming an issue if you’re living in arid >     conditions, but if you’re living in an area(like New Hampshire, USA), where >     you can expect regular rainfall, I’d expect all that to be leached out & kept >     under control. >         Also, FWIW(and more closely related to your message), Dad’s been >     watering all his houseplants with filtered water nonstop for the 4-5 >     years he’s had the filter.  No problems so far… (crosses fingers). How >     long did it take you before you started noticing problems? > I suppose if one just did a top-off of a pond (or aquarium) without ever doing > water changes, there’d be negative effects from the softened water.  Of course, > there are negative effects of just topping off even with unsoftened water, so > seems like a wash, IMHO. > — >   Bob Kenney

Response:

> After reading this, I’m wondering isn’t there a difference > between filtered water and softened water?

Heck, there is a difference between filtered water and filtered water Some water filters are capable of softening the water, but it is normally only going from very hard to hard. -stacy — You’ll see it’s all a show. Keep ‘em laughing as you go. Just remember that the last laugh is on you.         – Monty Python _The Life Of Brian_ Millions Consulting Limited

Response:

>After reading this, I’m wondering isn’t there a difference >between filtered water and softened water? >Bonnie >NJ

Lots.  A water softener exchanges ions of  calcium and magnesium for ions of sodium (sometimes potassium).  I researched it a couple years ago when I was looking at solutions to using my hard water for making homemade beer.  For that purpose, particularly with my already high sodium water, it was a no go.  For a pond, you are taking out the calcium carbonate that acts as a ph buffer, so I’d expect wide ph swings.  Makes fish unhappy.  Low calcium and magnesium levels may cause other problems. garyr Opinions expressed herein are my own and may not represent those of my employer.

Response:

> don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects >of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium

Eh?  ppm is ppm, doesn’t matter how big the body of water is. FWIW, I certainly noticed (after about a year) the (negative) effect of softened water on my indoor potted plants — had to do some major flushing of the soil with unsoftened water to get rid of the accumulated whatevers.  A couple of plants never recovered from the root damage. I suppose if one just did a top-off of a pond (or aquarium) without ever doing water changes, there’d be negative effects from the softened water.  Of course, there are negative effects of just topping off even with unsoftened water, so seems like a wash, IMHO.

Response:

> > don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects >of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium > Eh?  ppm is ppm, doesn’t matter how big the body of water is. > FWIW, I certainly noticed (after about a year) the (negative) effect of softened > water on my indoor potted plants — had to do some major flushing of the soil > with unsoftened water to get rid of the accumulated whatevers.  A couple of > plants never recovered from the root damage.

        Of course, hardness isn’t the only thing that can affect plants, pH is     pretty important, too.  My father had major problems with his outdoor taps     coming straight out of the well(pre-filter stage):         a) some coniferous evergreen bushes growing next to the house had some            serious brownout on a regular basis.  They’re known to like acidic            conditions, and being next to the 5 yo foundation, plus the highly            alkaline water he was watering them with was like a one-two punch.            After switching the outdoor taps so they were post-filter, they            greened right up.  No problems with them browning out since.         b) Dad -could not- get azaleas to last more than one season, especially            the last one(a Golden Lights). He’d plant them, they’d do OK for            the summer/4-5 months, and then they’d keel over.  They -must- have            acidic conditions, and even with dad using some acidifying fertilizer            they just kept dying.   Now that the outdoor taps are on filtered            water, he’s got a (second, replacement) Golden Lights that’s going on            2 years, and bulking out pretty nicely.         I could see soil mineralization becoming an issue if you’re living in arid     conditions, but if you’re living in an area(like New Hampshire, USA), where     you can expect regular rainfall, I’d expect all that to be leached out & kept     under control.         Also, FWIW(and more closely related to your message), Dad’s been     watering all his houseplants with filtered water nonstop for the 4-5     years he’s had the filter.  No problems so far… (crosses fingers). How     long did it take you before you started noticing problems? > I suppose if one just did a top-off of a pond (or aquarium) without ever doing > water changes, there’d be negative effects from the softened water.  Of course, > there are negative effects of just topping off even with unsoftened water, so > seems like a wash, IMHO.

–   Bob Kenney

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oh yes, they do have pellets, but I have been warned off the pellets as they are more likely to contain additives in the pellet.  INgrid > in Milwaukee the water softener salt is the solar salt.  in plastic bags. > always good to check carefully tho.   INgrid > >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt. >Here in NJ the solar salt is only crystal, the water >softener salt is usually pellets.  You’ve always specified >crystals.

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

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And here I thought this thread was going to be about "hard water" i.e. frozen ponds. BTW, I am moving and only have 2 half barrels to deal with and they are not frozen. Better news – get an in ground (or semi) again! randyinaloha

> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

– Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server – http://www.Mailgate.ORG

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Thanks again for the advice.  I’m gonna put the bypass on to fill it!  Of course the hole isn’t even dug yet but I’m getting spring fever.  I removed the sod when we had a record high 66 degree day in Indiana!  Now I have to stare at the muddy piece of ground for a while.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

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> in Milwaukee the water softener salt is the solar salt.  in plastic bags. > always good to check carefully tho.   INgrid >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt.

Here in NJ the solar salt is only crystal, the water softener salt is usually pellets.  You’ve always specified crystals. — Bonnie NJ http://hpphoto.com/home/ViewMyAlbum.asp?coll_id=876614 http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm

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The water conditioner’s brand name is Kinetico. It has a lot of fine selling points, and we’ve been very happy with it.  The only thing you need to do to it is remember to add the salt once in a while! Lee

> wowowo… cool.  I am planning on a water softener and then an RO unit, > together they will be bocu expensive to buy, not that bad to rent, but the > RO unit doesnt put out much quantity per day.  where did you get the > conditioning unit?  INgrid >OK, mea culpa: I have a water CONDITIONER.  It removes

chlorine/chloramines – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->as well as all the other nasty stuff (and softens it in the process).  I >have no chlorine after the "conditioner", and LOADS prior!  It’s not as good >as reverse osmosis, but the next best thing.  For what we paid for it, it >should do SOMEthing!!! >Lee > List manager- Puregold > http://puregold.aquaria.net/ > http://drsolo.net > Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other > compensation for all the work, endorsements and > recommendations I make.  And my husband has the > bills to prove it!

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> wowowo… cool.  I am planning on a water softener and then an RO unit, > together they will be bocu expensive to buy, not that bad to rent, but the > RO unit doesnt put out much quantity per day.  where did you get the > conditioning unit?  INgrid

an Aquarium Pharm. "Tap water purifier" will do almost the same job as RO but doesnt waste 90-95% like an RO does. for every 5 gals of treated RO water, 95 go down the drain. theres a list of nasties/metals etc. on the cart. that it takes out. — http://www.kencofish.com  401-781-9642 Importer/Exporter of Goldfish,Koi,rare Predators Shipping to legal states/countries only! Permalon liners, Oase & Supreme Pondmaster pumps make a no-cost donation to save the rain forrests here http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=981743017 Please Note: No trees or animals were harmed in the sending of this contaminant free message We do concede that a signicant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced.

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in Milwaukee the water softener salt is the solar salt.  in plastic bags. always good to check carefully tho.   INgrid >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt.

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

wowowo… cool.  I am planning on a water softener and then an RO unit, together they will be bocu expensive to buy, not that bad to rent, but the RO unit doesnt put out much quantity per day.  where did you get the conditioning unit?  INgrid >OK, mea culpa: I have a water CONDITIONER.  It removes chlorine/chloramines >as well as all the other nasty stuff (and softens it in the process).  I >have no chlorine after the "conditioner", and LOADS prior!  It’s not as good >as reverse osmosis, but the next best thing.  For what we paid for it, it >should do SOMEthing!!! >Lee

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

>I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my >pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone >so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard >the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts.

Are you sure your outside faucets are softened?  Most installations I’ve seen only soften the indoor water. It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll save you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with softened water, either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health  in tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water)

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>It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll>save >you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with softened>water, >either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health>in >tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water)

Several people here who like to add salt to the pond have even suggested using salt for water softeners.    Jerri                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

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> >It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll>save >you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with > softened>water, >either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health>in >tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water) > Several people here who like to add salt to the pond have even suggested using > salt for water softeners.    Jerri >                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

No not water softener salt – Solar Salt. — Bonnie NJ http://hpphoto.com/home/ViewMyAlbum.asp?coll_id=876614 http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm

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I don’t know how one would notice without doing a study, the effects of low hardness in water in a small body like an aquarium.   I wouldn’t be concerned about the savings from the price of salt.   The last 40 lb bag I bought was less than $4.   I also make it a point to maintain .02 to .1% salt in my pond. http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/aquanic/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/464fs.pdf SRAC pub 464 talks about raising fish in quantity and production, indicating to me that would be ideal for fish growth.   They claim a catfish can tolerate 10 ppm hardness so long as the feed contains enough calcium and pH is above 6.5, but for other fish production they recommend higher hardness.  I would shoot for 100 to 250 ppm GH .  I seem to recall those numbers from somewhere, but can’t give you a reference at the moment.   Mine is only 90 ppm and in order to reach 100, I add gypsum (Plaster of Paris) for increased GH and baking soda for increased alkalinity.   Getting water hardness up is easier than lowering it. Regards, Hal – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my >pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone >so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard >the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. >Are you sure your outside faucets are softened?  Most installations I’ve seen >only soften the indoor water. >It certainly won’t hurt to fill the pond with unsoftened water, and it’ll save >you a few $$ in salt.  OTOH, it probably won’t hurt to fill with softened water, >either (as an aquarist, I’ve noticed no difference in plant or fish health  in >tanks filled with softened water and unsoftened water)

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I have a water softener, which I usually forget to turn off before I do water changes. On the initial fill, I did remember.  After that, I usually just top it off as necessary.  It eliminates the need for the chlorine removers, and the conditioner seems to remove some of the other impurities. My water tests out fine.  I’ve been meaning to get something to test the salinity (as a matter of curiosity), but folks add salt on purpose, so I don’t think the residual amount from the softener would hurt anything. I can’t taste it . . .  The only thing I can think of that might be detrimental would be the KH/GH buffering capabilities, but I put a big piece of limestone in the pond (which stops leaching at 8.0), so my PH is completely stable.  It will be interesting to see what the "chemists" say. Good luck! Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

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anyone on city water (not their own well) must add dechlor to both the unsoftened water and softened water.  softening does not remove the chlorine.  there is nothing wrong with soft water as long as (you point out) some buffer is added back like dolomitic lime or limestones (but not plaster of paris or quicklime.)  some people do have such alkaline water that the Na levels are extremely high after softening, too high for GF.  If the water out of the tap before softening is 300 ppm or less hardness, then it is fine to be used.  if more, than a combination of water would probably be a good idea.  Ingrid – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have a water softener, which I usually forget to turn off before I do >water changes. On the initial fill, I did remember.  After that, I usually >just top it off as necessary.  It eliminates the need for the chlorine >removers, and the conditioner seems to remove some of the other impurities. >My water tests out fine.  I’ve been meaning to get something to test the >salinity (as a matter of curiosity), but folks add salt on purpose, so I >don’t think the residual amount from the softener would hurt anything. I >can’t taste it . . .  The only thing I can think of that might be >detrimental would be the KH/GH buffering capabilities, but I put a big piece >of limestone in the pond (which stops leaching at 8.0), so my PH is >completely stable.  It will be interesting to see what the "chemists" say. >Good luck! Lee > I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill >my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

List manager- Puregold http://puregold.aquaria.net/ http://drsolo.net Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other compensation for all the work, endorsements and recommendations I make.  And my husband has the bills to prove it!  

Response:

OK, mea culpa: I have a water CONDITIONER.  It removes chlorine/chloramines as well as all the other nasty stuff (and softens it in the process).  I have no chlorine after the "conditioner", and LOADS prior!  It’s not as good as reverse osmosis, but the next best thing.  For what we paid for it, it should do SOMEthing!!! Lee

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> anyone on city water (not their own well) must add dechlor to both the > unsoftened water and softened water.  softening does not remove the > chlorine.  there is nothing wrong with soft water as long as (you point > out) some buffer is added back like dolomitic lime or limestones (but not > plaster of paris or quicklime.)  some people do have such alkaline water > that the Na levels are extremely high after softening, too high for GF. If > the water out of the tap before softening is 300 ppm or less hardness, then > it is fine to be used.  if more, than a combination of water would probably > be a good idea.  Ingrid >I have a water softener, which I usually forget to turn off before I do >water changes. On the initial fill, I did remember.  After that, I usually >just top it off as necessary.  It eliminates the need for the chlorine >removers, and the conditioner seems to remove some of the other impurities. >My water tests out fine.  I’ve been meaning to get something to test the >salinity (as a matter of curiosity), but folks add salt on purpose, so I >don’t think the residual amount from the softener would hurt anything. I >can’t taste it . . .  The only thing I can think of that might be >detrimental would be the KH/GH buffering capabilities, but I put a big piece >of limestone in the pond (which stops leaching at 8.0), so my PH is >completely stable.  It will be interesting to see what the "chemists" say. >Good luck! Lee >> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill >my >> pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone >> so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard >> the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. >> Thanks, >> Adrian Bauer > List manager- Puregold > http://puregold.aquaria.net/ > http://drsolo.net > Solve the problem, dont waste energy looking for who’s to blame > Unfortunately, I receive no money, gifts, discounts or other > compensation for all the work, endorsements and > recommendations I make.  And my husband has the > bills to prove it!

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>No not water softener salt – Solar Salt.

Well I sure am glad I don’t use salt then……:=)   Jerri                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

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> >No not water softener salt – Solar Salt. > Well I sure am glad I don’t use salt then……:=)   Jerri >                                        http://www.fringeweb.com/Ponds/JerrisPond

FWIW Solar salt is used for water softners. — http://www.kencofish.com  401-781-9642 Importer/Exporter of Goldfish,Koi,rare Predators Shipping to legal states/countries only! Permalon liners, Oase & Supreme Pondmaster pumps make a no-cost donation to save the rain forrests here http://rainforest.care2.com/welcome?w=981743017 Please Note: No trees or animals were harmed in the sending of this contaminant free message We do concede that a signicant number of electrons may have been inconvenienced.

Response:

I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. Thanks, Adrian Bauer

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> I was just wondering if I should turn off my water softener before I fill my > pond this spring.  The town’s water supply flows between natural limestone > so I have very hard water without the softener.  I haven’t tested how hard > the water actually is.  Thanks in advance to the pond chemistry experts. > Thanks, > Adrian Bauer

Yes, if you can put it on by-pass do that.  If not shut it down.  I must do this every time I add water to my pond, just remember to turn it back on.  Soft water is great for washing and bathing, but not for the fish. — Bonnie NJ http://hpphoto.com/home/ViewMyAlbum.asp?coll_id=876614 http://www.users.fast.net/~maebe/index.htm

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