Today's Articles

• ultimate book on building a system?

  Question:

  Does anyone have recommendations for the ultimate book on building or putting together a solar electric system?  Maybe a list of several books? Don’t want science, but more layman’s type stuff.  An idiot’s guide to……but well worth the money?  Thanks!

  Response:

  > Does anyone have recommendations for the ultimate book on building or > putting together a solar electric system?  Maybe a list of several books? > Don’t want science, but more layman’s type stuff.  An idiot’s guide > to……but well worth the money?  Thanks!

          You may find the PV FAQ of some use, specifically Question 96B.         96B) Are there any good books about PV?         http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html#Q96         The books by Davidson, Strong & Scheller have practical         how to material. <regards> -het PostSig:         <http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/>         <http://www.marryanamerican.ca> — "We need a wake up call. We need it desperately. We need basically  a new form of energy. I don’t know that there is one." -Matthew Simmons, energy adviser for President Bush, May 23rd 2002 Energy Alternatives: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/energy.html H.E. Taylor  http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/

  Response:

  > Does anyone have recommendations for the ultimate book on building or > putting together a solar electric system?  Maybe a list of several books? > Don’t want science, but more layman’s type stuff.  An idiot’s guide > to……but well worth the money?  Thanks!

  Yeah, Staring at the Sun. (PDF on CD) $25 US, postage paid, Airmail. Contents by request. George

  Response:

  Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one?  hmmmm…… Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Does anyone have recommendations for the ultimate book on building or >putting together a solar electric system?  Maybe a list of several books? >Don’t want science, but more layman’s type stuff.  An idiot’s guide >to……but well worth the money?  Thanks! > Yeah, Staring at the Sun. (PDF on CD) > $25 US, postage paid, Airmail. > Contents by request. > George

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one?  hmmmm…… > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org >>Does anyone have recommendations for the ultimate book on building or >>putting together a solar electric system?  Maybe a list of several books? >>Don’t want science, but more layman’s type stuff.  An idiot’s guide >>to……but well worth the money?  Thanks! > Yeah, Staring at the Sun. (PDF on CD) > $25 US, postage paid, Airmail. > Contents by request. > George

  Seen your system.

  Response:

  Glad you have seen it. It works. Not bad considering the funds I had to build it. Shows that anyone with a bit of electrical knowledge can safely build a system to provide themselves with power, especially if they don’t have a big budget to work with. It’s a work in progress. We add to it when funds allow. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Seen your system.

  Response:

  > Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one?  hmmmm…… > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org

  What’s a Green Conservative?

  Response:

  Someone who sits (squeezed) firmly between the democrats and the republicans and practices stewardship of the resources given to us. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one?  hmmmm…… >Steve Spence >Dir., Green Trust >http://www.green-trust.org > What’s a Green Conservative?

  Response:

  > Glad you have seen it. It works. Not bad considering the funds I had to > build it. Shows that anyone with a bit of electrical knowledge can > safely build a system to provide themselves with power, especially if > they don’t have a big budget to work with. It’s a work in progress. We > add to it when funds allow. > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org > Seen your system.

  Funds have very little to do with a clean installation. I have no doubt it works. But with the evidence of skill shown, fo how long.

  Response:

  Longer than your reputation lasted on this newsgroup. It’s a work in progress, so  the "in construction" look will be there for a while, but it is safe, and it is wired correctly. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Funds have very little to do with a clean installation. I have no doubt > it works. But with the evidence of skill shown, fo how long.

  Response:

  > Someone who sits (squeezed) firmly > between the democrats and the > republicans

  So you are a Purple Conservative. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> and practices stewardship of the resources given to us. > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org >>Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one? hmmmm…… >>Steve Spence >>Dir., Green Trust >>http://www.green-trust.org > What’s a Green Conservative?

  Response:

  > Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one?  hmmmm…… > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org > What’s a Green Conservative?

  I thought it was a Conservative who just hadn’t enough time to "ripen". 8^)

  Response:

  same as a pink one  but a different colour jeeez

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one? hmmmm…… > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org > What’s a Green Conservative?

  Response:

  > Longer than your reputation lasted on this newsgroup. It’s a work in > progress, so  the "in construction" look will be there for a while, but > it is safe, and it is wired correctly. > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org > Funds have very little to do with a clean installation. I have no doubt > it works. But with the evidence of skill shown, fo how long.

  Maybe you should dust off your begging bowl. Surely someone will give you money for some fittings

  Response:

  I only get purple when I see the stupid anti-environmental decisions coming out of Washington ….. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Someone who sits (squeezed) firmly >between the democrats and the >republicans > So you are a Purple Conservative. >and practices stewardship of the resources given to us. >Steve Spence >Dir., Green Trust >http://www.green-trust.org >>>Did he ask for a book that is a guide for idiots, or by one? > hmmmm…… >>>Steve Spence >>>Dir., Green Trust >>>http://www.green-trust.org >>What’s a Green Conservative?

  Response:

  naw, I prefer working for a living. good things come to those who work for it. I do get a few donations here and there from those who appreciate the work I put into sharing our experiences, but primarily I’m self funded. So system upgrades compete with food and clothes. If I could just teach the kids to eat grass and run around naked. Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Maybe you should dust off your begging bowl. Surely someone will give > you money for some fittings

  Response:

  > naw, I prefer working for a living. good things come to those who work > for it.

  What a claim. It was not that long ago you had found yourself out of work. Panicked and went begging. Paid any of that back yet? > I do get a few donations here and there from those who appreciate the > work I put into sharing our experiences, but primarily I’m self funded. > So system upgrades compete with food and clothes. If I could just teach > the kids to eat grass and run around naked.

  First time I have heard lack of funds as an excuse for poor workmanship. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org > Maybe you should dust off your begging bowl. Surely someone will give > you money for some fittings

  Response:

  George, you are such a bore, but ok, I’ll bite: Steve Spence Dir., Green Trust http://www.green-trust.org >naw, I prefer working for a living. good things come to those who work >for it. > What a claim. It was not that long ago you had found yourself out of > work. Panicked and went begging. Paid any of that back yet?

  Ever been out of work? It happens. Ever have big medical bills yuo can’t pay? That happens too. Both at the same time is really rough. Last I heard, you pay back loans, not donations. I pay back donations with gratitude and by providing accurate, free information. I’ve been doing that for 20 years. Started with BBS’s, and moved to web in ‘94. >I do get a few donations here and there from those who appreciate the >work I put into sharing our experiences, but primarily I’m self funded. >So system upgrades compete with food and clothes. If I could just teach >the kids to eat grass and run around naked. > First time I have heard lack of funds as an excuse for poor workmanship.

  What poor workmanship? I wasn’t aware you could tell the difference, since "work" doesn’t seem to be one of your strong points … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Steve Spence >Dir., Green Trust >http://www.green-trust.org >>Maybe you should dust off your begging bowl. Surely someone will give >>you money for some fittings

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> George, you are such a bore, but ok, I’ll bite: > Steve Spence > Dir., Green Trust > http://www.green-trust.org >>naw, I prefer working for a living. good things come to those who work >>for it. > What a claim. It was not that long ago you had found yourself out of > work. Panicked and went begging. Paid any of that back yet? > Ever been out of work? It happens. Ever have big medical bills yuo can’t > pay? That happens too. Both at the same time is really rough. Last I > heard, you pay back loans, not donations. I pay back donations with > gratitude and by providing accurate, free information. I’ve been doing > that for 20 years. Started with BBS’s, and moved to web in ‘94.

  Great rationalization. >>I do get a few donations here and there from those who appreciate the >>work I put into sharing our experiences, but primarily I’m self funded. >>So system upgrades compete with food and clothes. If I could just teach >>the kids to eat grass and run around naked. > First time I have heard lack of funds as an excuse for poor workmanship. > What poor workmanship? I wasn’t aware you could tell the difference, > since "work" doesn’t seem to be one of your strong points …

  Look at the wiring, then compare it to (I should bite my tongue) Waynes installation.

  Response:

  >> > First time I have heard lack of funds as an excuse for poor workmanship. > What poor workmanship? I wasn’t aware you could tell the difference, > since "work" doesn’t seem to be one of your strong points … >Look at the wiring, then compare it to (I should bite my tongue) Waynes >installation.

  Hey Steve, I see that George is using my setup as an example of good workmanship. But check out one of his previous posts –  "My wiring is always 100% Most of my work is fixing up systems designed by people like Nick and Wayne." http://tinyurl.com/4jb3y It seems he’s been too busy criticizing to think of using a spreadsheet <snorf> to keep track of his opinions. So don’t be surprised if someday he says something nice about your setup too. He will have to continue using others’ systems as examples though, since he’s too ashamed of his own to show photos. Apparently it’s all part of his master plan to impress prospective "book" purchasers. Imagine how low his opinion must be of *them*. Wayne

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> > First time I have heard lack of funds as an excuse for poor workmanship. >> What poor workmanship? I wasn’t aware you could tell the difference, >> since "work" doesn’t seem to be one of your strong points … >Look at the wiring, then compare it to (I should bite my tongue) Waynes >installation. > Hey Steve, I see that George is using my setup as an example of good > workmanship. But check out one of his previous posts –  "My wiring is > always 100% Most of my work is fixing up systems designed by people > like Nick and Wayne." http://tinyurl.com/4jb3y > It seems he’s been too busy criticizing to think of using a > spreadsheet <snorf> to keep track of his opinions. So don’t be > surprised if someday he says something nice about your setup too. He > will have to continue using others’ systems as examples though, since > he’s too ashamed of his own to show photos. Apparently it’s all part > of his master plan to impress prospective "book" purchasers. Imagine > how low his opinion must be of *them*. > Wayne

  Nope! That dosen’t add up to two days autonomy either.

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• pex tubing

  Question:

  Hi:      Has anyone tried using pex tubing in a solar collector? it would be cheaper and easier to work with than copper…

  Response:

  > Hi: >      Has anyone tried using pex tubing in a solar collector? it would be > cheaper and easier to work with than copper…

  Hi, It seems to me that the set of installation instructions I read for pex for under floor heating said not to leave it exposed to the sun for more than 30 days — that might be bad for a solar collector But, may not be true for all formulations? Some of the radiant floor heating suppliers also sell Aluminum heat distribution "tracks" or fins that the pex tubing snaps into.  The fins spread the heat out when the radiant floor tubing is installed under a plywood sub floor.  This might work to pick up heat in a collector if painted black. The temperature inside a glazed collector at stagnation is probably to high for pex unless some steps are taken to protect it. — I have wondered about using 3/4 or  1 inch pex for the line from the collector to the storage tank.  Seems like it would be a lot easier than copper.  Its good for 200F at 80 psi. This is from the Wirsbo.com site — a pex supplier: hePEX

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• How to unclog solar panel?

  Question:

  I have a 2 panel hot water heater.  Each panel is 4×12 ft.  One of the panels has a clog of some sort.  I have tried hooking it up to a garden hose and forcing water through it – no good.  Does anybody know how to solve this problem?

  Response:

  > I have a 2 panel hot water heater.  Each panel is 4×12 ft.  One of the > panels has a clog of some sort.  I have tried hooking it up to a garden hose > and forcing water through it – no good.  Does anybody know how to solve this > problem?

  If the clog is from hard water deposits, you might try running a vinegar solution through the it to dissolve the clog.  The folks who install/maintain these systems have a stronger acid solution that can be used if the vinegar does not work. If its not a hard water deposit, you might try running the garden hose water through in the opposite direction to the normal flow? Gary

  Response:

  Thanks Gary.  I have tried both directions several times.  How do I get the vinegar solution down to the clog of the water won’t go through at all? Nolan

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a 2 panel hot water heater.  Each panel is 4×12 ft.  One of the > panels has a clog of some sort.  I have tried hooking it up to a garden hose > and forcing water through it – no good.  Does anybody know how to solve this > problem? > If the clog is from hard water deposits, you might try running a > vinegar solution through the it to dissolve the clog.  The folks who > install/maintain these systems have a stronger acid solution that can > be used if the vinegar does not work. > If its not a hard water deposit, you might try running the garden hose > water through in the opposite direction to the normal flow? > Gary

  Response:

  > Thanks Gary.  I have tried both directions several times.  How do I get the > vinegar solution down to the clog of the water won’t go through at all?

  Pour out water from both directions (if the panel is dismounted and mobile). If the panel is mounted, you’d probably need to pump out what you can from the top side (small diameter tube connected to a pump), and pour in acid. — Cats, Coffee, Chocolate…vices to live by

  Response:

  > Thanks Gary.  I have tried both directions several times.  How do I get the > vinegar solution down to the clog of the water won’t go through at all?

  The vinegar will eat its was for the point it touches the blockage.  It may be a slow process.  The major plumbing/heating chemical companies will advise which chemical to use, which is what I would do.

  Response:

  > I have a 2 panel hot water heater.  Each panel is 4×12 ft.  One of the > panels has a clog of some sort.  I have tried hooking it up to a garden hose > and forcing water through it – no good.  Does anybody know how to solve this > problem?

  Hi, If you decide that there is no way to fix the panel, there are places that sell replacement absorber sheets.  This way you would not have to throw away the entire collector.  They will make the absorber sheets to the dimensions that you specify. Here is a link to one of them: http://www.solarenergy.com/ws400CS.cgi?category=sh_absorbers.html&car… Gary

  Response:

  Thanks.  I’ll keep the link.  I’m going to try a 1/4" auger.  Hopefully the clog is within 25′ of the output. Nolan

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a 2 panel hot water heater.  Each panel is 4×12 ft.  One of the > panels has a clog of some sort.  I have tried hooking it up to a garden hose > and forcing water through it – no good.  Does anybody know how to solve this > problem? > Hi, > If you decide that there is no way to fix the panel, there are places > that sell replacement absorber sheets.  This way you would not have > to throw away the entire collector.  They will make the absorber > sheets to > the dimensions that you specify. > Here is a link to one of them: > http://www.solarenergy.com/ws400CS.cgi?category=sh_absorbers.html&car… > Gary

  Response:

  > Thanks.  I’ll keep the link.  I’m going to try a 1/4" auger.  Hopefully the > clog is within 25′ of the output. > Nolan

  You can make a very long drill quite easily by taking say a 6 foot 1/4 inch rod and flattening the end with a hammer.  If you actually want to drill wood grind two edges on the flattened portion in a vee like a regular drill. Just the flattened "paddle" end will probably clear out your pipe.  If you want to get fancy heat it with a propane torch till it is red hot and twist it into your auger shape. – Graham PS you may want to try using something like CLR solution pumped into the pipes via small vinyl tubing… Good luck

  Response:

  CLR?

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks.  I’ll keep the link.  I’m going to try a 1/4" auger.  Hopefully > the > clog is within 25′ of the output. > Nolan > You can make a very long drill quite easily by taking say a 6 foot 1/4 inch > rod and flattening > the end with a hammer.  If you actually want to drill wood grind two edges > on the flattened portion in a vee like a regular drill. > Just the flattened "paddle" end will probably clear out your pipe.  If you > want to get fancy heat it with a propane torch till it is red hot and twist > it into your auger shape. > – Graham > PS you may want to try using something like CLR solution pumped into the > pipes via small vinyl tubing… > Good luck

  Response:

  Sorry,  Trade name of some kind of "miracle" acid solution sold in Canada at ridicolous markup (as advertised on TV) for dissolving stains and hard water marks etc. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> CLR?

  Response:

  >Sorry,  Trade name of some kind of "miracle" acid solution sold in Canada at >ridicolous markup (as advertised on TV) for dissolving stains and hard water >marks etc.

  we have it in the states as well.. "Calcium Lime Remover" — be safe. flip Ich habe keine Ahnung was das bedeutet, oder vielleicht doch?

  Response:

  use citric acid its a lot cheaper and does the same thing plus you can get it from the spice section of the supermarket

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Sorry,  Trade name of some kind of "miracle" acid solution sold in Canada > at > ridicolous markup (as advertised on TV) for dissolving stains and hard > water > marks etc. > CLR?

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• Hail protection for collector

  Question:

  What are the dangers of hailstones breaking the glass on a solar collector? I have some nice double glazed widows I’d like to use in some   home made collectors. They are 3 ft by 7.5ft. and would be at an angle of roughly sixty degrees to ground (thirty degrees from vertical). Any experiences? Would a plastic cover reduce efficiency too much? mike —      __    __    __    __    __    __    __    __     / /  / /  / /  / /  / /  / /  / /  / /   /_/  /_/  /_/  /_/  /_/  /_/  /_/  /_/             ..let the cat out to reply..                

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• Do Reflectors Work at Night?

  Question:

  I’m planning to get some coolth from exposing a collector to the cold black night sky.  But can anybody tell me if it will help to mount reflector wings on the side, as it helps when you’re doing flat-plate solar heat collecting during the day?  - Bill Fisher p.s. my guess is that they will help, at least when you have them blocking the colletor’s view of the relatively hot terrestial environment, and converting that into a view of the sky.

  Response:

  I guess your main heat losses will be conduction/ air convection and NOT radiation (unless you have a particularly cold night), which means that the reflector will make little difference. The principle is correct, however. adrenalin

  > I’m planning to get some coolth from exposing a collector to the > cold black night sky.  But can anybody tell me if it will help to > mount reflector wings on the side, as it helps when you’re doing > flat-plate solar heat collecting during the day? >  - Bill Fisher > p.s. my guess is that they will help, at least when you have them > blocking the colletor’s view of the relatively hot terrestial environment, > and converting that into a view of the sky.

  — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

  Response:

  > I’m planning to get some coolth from exposing a collector to the > cold black night sky.  But can anybody tell me if it will help to > mount reflector wings on the side, as it helps when you’re doing > flat-plate solar heat collecting during the day? >  - Bill Fisher > p.s. my guess is that they will help, at least when you have them > blocking the colletor’s view of the relatively hot terrestial environment, > and converting that into a view of the sky.

  Well, *assuming* no conduction/convection is involved, no I don’t think they would help.  If a given amount of energy is radiated from your ‘collector’ at night, the path the radiation takes after leaving it isn’t too important (unless the reflector actually reflects it back to the collector surface). To maximize radiant cooling, I should think you want to fold the reflectors down flat away from the collector.  This would maximize the angle that the collector can radiate thru to the night sky. daestrom

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m planning to get some coolth from exposing a collector to the > cold black night sky.  But can anybody tell me if it will help to > mount reflector wings on the side, as it helps when you’re doing > flat-plate solar heat collecting during the day? >  - Bill Fisher > p.s. my guess is that they will help, at least when you have them > blocking the colletor’s view of the relatively hot terrestial environment, > and converting that into a view of the sky. > Well, *assuming* no conduction/convection is involved, no I don’t think they > would help.  If a given amount of energy is radiated from your ‘collector’ > at night, the path the radiation takes after leaving it isn’t too important > (unless the reflector actually reflects it back to the collector surface). > To maximize radiant cooling, I should think you want to fold the reflectors > down flat away from the collector.  This would maximize the angle that the > collector can radiate thru to the night sky. > daestrom

  My feeling is that they would help, but to see much benefit you’d need a clear sky. Your radiator will radiate energy depending upon its temperature and the surface material. It will also absorb radiated energy striking it. Whether the body cools or heats up (for radiated energy) will be dictated by which energy flow is higher. By placing the body in the reflector, you are receiving minimal energy (from the direction of the reflector surface), but the radiated energy flow is maintained. The best part is that the reflectors would not need to track any part of the sky. In fact the reflector surface could be extended beyond the radiator to decrease the radiation from the surroundings. Whether it would be worth it is another matter. (You still have ambient temperature and conduction to think about of course). What do you think? Simon.

  Response:

  Simon says: >Whether it would be worth it is another matter. (You still have ambient >temperature and conduction to think about of course). >What do you think?

   Well, it depends on how cheaply you can make the cooler and how dear electricity is.  I hope I can get some free time in a couple of weeks to do some actual experimenting. Even if it’s not economical, I may try to do it anyway: it’d really be a kick to be able to freeze a little ice in August this way.  I found a paper at this site: http://wire0.ises.org/wire/doclibs/SWC1999.nsf/0/e678b47954fc0b69c125… 03d61a4?OpenDocument  that claims to get 40 watts/sq meter of cooling power with their cooling radiator design. A small room air conditioner might take 6000 btu/hr  =~ 1758 watts, so you could get the equivalent with a collector of 44 sq m, or about 400 sq ft, about 20′ x 20′, unless I’ve mis-calculated.   And I’m trying to figure out a way to pull & hold a vacuum around the collector, which should minimize conductance losses. And if it’s a flat plate, covering the back & sides with shiny aluminum foil should minimize radiative losses to the earth.  I haven’t found a real good source for cheap flat copper or aluminum for flat plates, so my first real experimental system may be an evacuated-tube design, using copper tubes sold for plumbing, a transparent surrounding tube made from a flourescent-light protector that Lowe’s sells, evacuated with a small hand pump sold by Edmund Scientifics, and a large reflector made from cardboard covered with aluminum foil.  I plan to do some preliminary experiments using two wide-mouth thermos bottles side by side, each lidded with a sandwich of two sheets of plastic or glass with a vacuum between, one with a large funnel reflector and one without, each with an electronic thermometer inside. This should tell me what cooling power I can typically get, and whether or not a reflector really helps.  And I’m going to sneak some flat wires out of the thermos bottles running to my computer, so I don’t have to sit up all night recording data.  - Bill F.

  Response:

  >   And I’m trying to figure out a way to pull & hold a vacuum > around the collector, which should minimize conductance losses.

  It would also bounce the radiation (long wavelength) from the radiator back, preventing the cooling effect. One possible way of looking at the idea of using reflectors to cool is this. A flat plate insulated and silvered on the bottom is only radiating energy from half of its’ surface area. By using reflectors, you can double it, along with the radiative cooling effect. Perhaps as an experiment you could fill some copper tubes with warm water and make use of reflectors with one of them, and record how quickly their temperatures drop, and how low their temperatures go. Should be fairly quick and easy to do. Simon. Here’s a though. Since the radiation is long wavelength, the reflectors need not be shiny or opaque. Glass could do the trick!

  Response:

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I’m planning to get some coolth from exposing a collector to the > > cold black night sky.  But can anybody tell me if it will help to > > mount reflector wings on the side, as it helps when you’re doing > > flat-plate solar heat collecting during the day? > >  - Bill Fisher > > p.s. my guess is that they will help, at least when you have them > > blocking the colletor’s view of the relatively hot terrestial > environment, > > and converting that into a view of the sky. > Well, *assuming* no conduction/convection is involved, no I don’t think > they > would help.  If a given amount of energy is radiated from your ‘collector’ > at night, the path the radiation takes after leaving it isn’t too > important > (unless the reflector actually reflects it back to the collector surface). > To maximize radiant cooling, I should think you want to fold the > reflectors > down flat away from the collector.  This would maximize the angle that the > collector can radiate thru to the night sky. > daestrom > My feeling is that they would help, but to see much benefit you’d need a > clear sky. Your radiator will radiate energy depending upon its temperature > and the surface material. It will also absorb radiated energy striking it. > Whether the body cools or heats up (for radiated energy) will be dictated by > which energy flow is higher. By placing the body in the reflector, you are > receiving minimal energy (from the direction of the reflector surface), but > the radiated energy flow is maintained. The best part is that the reflectors > would not need to track any part of the sky. In fact the reflector surface > could be extended beyond the radiator to decrease the radiation from the > surroundings.

  What you’re saying is true, *if* the reflector blocks the line-of-sight between the collector and some warm body here on Earth.  But I was thinking of folding any such reflector down so that there is a wider arc of *sky* exposed to the collector.  If the reflector is just between the collector and some portion of the sky, then the radiant flux from the reflector *must* be higher than the portion of the sky it obscures.  And in that case, no reflector is better. But yes, if instead it blocks radiant energy from some earth bound objects, then it would improve the cooling. daestrom

  Response:

  > > > I’m planning to get some coolth from exposing a collector to the > > cold black night sky.  But can anybody tell me if it will help to > > mount reflector wings on the side, as it helps when you’re doing > > flat-plate solar heat collecting during the day?

  Lets see… objects on earth have temp determined by conduction and radiation to and from other objects around them, including air. If we vacuum insulate something, there is very little conduction, and temp is determined by the equilibrium of radiated heat to and from the object. Now if we add sky pointing reflectors all around our insulated object, the object still radiates but the sky radiates very little back. Dose this mean that oevr time this object would fall well below earth air temp? Regards, NT

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• Need Info on Solar Roof Shingles

  Question:

  Hello everyone. This is my first post to this group.  My apologies if this topic has been covered (as I’m sure it has).  I’m in the process of buying a motel in South Lake Tahoe, CA to renovate.  One thing I’d like to explore is replacing the roof with solar shingles, but I don’t really know where to start. If anyone has any experience with solar roofing shingles and/or good website references, I’d greatly appreciate any information you can share. Thanks so much! -Rob Wyatt

  Response:

  >[...] > If anyone has any experience with solar roofing shingles and/or good > website references, I’d greatly appreciate any information you can > share.

          You may find the PV FAQ of some use, specifically Questions 9F,9G.         9F) What are these solar tiles?         9G) What are Building Integrated PhotoVoltaics?         http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html#Q09         There are also some Solar Tile dealers at:         http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/solar.html#SolarTiles         In the States there is a federal Million Roofs project         you can find through the DOE. <regards> -het PS.         Added a.s.pv     — "The universe is full of magical things patiently waiting for  our wits to grow sharper." -Eden Phillpotts PV FAQ: http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/energy/pv_faq.html H.E. Taylor  http://www.autobahn.mb.ca/~het/

  Response:

  Just saw in Popular Science. See www.solarcentury.com

  – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> If anyone has any experience with solar roofing shingles and/or good > website references, I’d greatly appreciate any information you can > share.

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• Adhesive for Coroplast

  Question:

  Loctite has an adhesive, Loctite 3030, which will bond polypropylene, as well as other low energy plastics. They have a PDF tech sheet on their web-site.

  Response:

  hello thanks I will check it : my project is still alive: 8 by 8 feet solar panel with coroplast and thanks of pvc on top and bottom. I will post the result here ! Snoop – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Loctite has an adhesive, Loctite 3030, which will > bond polypropylene, as well as other low energy > plastics. > They have a PDF tech sheet on their web-site.

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > hello > thanks I will check it : my project is still alive: 8 by 8 feet solar panel > with coroplast and thanks of pvc on top and bottom. > I will post the result here ! > Snoop > Loctite has an adhesive, Loctite 3030, which will > bond polypropylene, as well as other low energy > plastics. > They have a PDF tech sheet on their web-site.

  Please do, I would be very interested.

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• how effecient is current technology?

  Question:

  What percent of sunshine is captured via thermal heating? photoelectic? burning corn? alcohol from corn?

  Response:

  > What percent of sunshine is captured via > thermal heating? > photoelectic? > burning corn? > alcohol from corn?

  It varies depending on the technologies used. For instance, I’m told thermal heating can be as much as 80% efficient when using collectors to heat or pre-heat air for a building. Thermal collectors designed to heat water I’m told are only about 50%. Here is a page that shows this. The higher the temperature you want out of the panels then the less efficient they are. http://www.thermomax.com/Efficiency.htm Photovoltaic can be as high as 30% when using very expensive cells while average consumer panels run about 12 to 15% and amorphous panels are about 6%. http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/eff/Effic.%20Table%20(Table%201(V18).pdf http://www.solarserver.de/wissen/photovoltaik-e.html I don’t have any figures on biofuels but I believe they only yield in the 1 to 2% range. You might note that corn is probably not the best plant to use as a source of biofuel. http://science.howstuffworks.com/question638.htm If you then take corn and make alcohol from it then the energy from the alcohol (ignoring the energy used to distill it and the energy remaining the the waste products) is going to be significantly less. You are probably talking less than half a percent. Anthony

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• whether to build ITER or not; Fusion Barrier Principle

  Question:

  > Earlier this year I bought a Webster’s Dictionary because I found it > too time consuming to look up words on the Internet and that it is > faster by book.

  www.dictionary.com

  Response:

  >>Earlier this year I bought a Webster’s Dictionary because I found it >too time consuming to look up words on the Internet and that it is >faster by book. > www.dictionary.com

  It did not know the first word that I asked it to search!                "aneutronic" — | Paul M. Koloc; Prometheus II, Ltd.; 9903 Cottrell Terrace, | Silver Spring, MD 20903-1927; FAX (301) 434-6737: Tel (301) 445-1075 | Grid Power  -Raising $$Support$$ <http://www.neoteric-research.org/>

  Response:

  > >>Earlier this year I bought a Webster’s Dictionary because I found it >>too time consuming to look up words on the Internet and that it is >>faster by book. > www.dictionary.com > It did not know the first word that I asked it to search! >                "aneutronic"

  www.google.com "how to use google"

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>Earlier this year I bought a Webster’s Dictionary because I found it > >>too time consuming to look up words on the Internet and that it is > >>faster by book. > > www.dictionary.com > It did not know the first word that I asked it to search! >                "aneutronic" > www.google.com "how to use google"

  Google: "aneutronic" — 683 hits. The major of hits appear to be from "flake" sites like Keelynet, but what the heck.                                                      Harry C.

  Response:

  I’m amazed! Searched the web for Plutonium at google’s and the second link is the Archimedes Plutonium Website and google gives his page a pagerank of 6??? Archimedes, I would like to look forward on your conclusions. Which magazine has published your theory on Fusion Barrier Principle? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Earlier this year I bought a Webster’s Dictionary because I found it > too time consuming to look up words on the Internet and that it is > faster by book. But I was not sure of what type of dictionary I should > get and it seems as though I made the proper choice because this > edition had an entry for "Barabbas" and now today satisfied me with an > entry for "klutz". > In the AP news was a bulletin about ITER, the big tokamak machine that > is the successor of JET. Remember that JET reached 64% breakeven but > the world record holder is not a tokamak but a muon catalyzed fusion > experiment conducted by Nagamine in England where he reached 67% > breakeven. > AP news for the proposed ITER said this "France’s proposed site is in > the southeastern town of Cadarache. Japan is promoting Rokkasho > village on the main island’s northern tip." > I have mixed feelings about building ITER. On the one hand I am > confident that the FBP is true and that ITER will only reach 67% > breakeven and that it is a dud of a science project to ever build > because Muon catalyzed fusion has already reached 67% breakeven. In > one vein I am disheartened by the building of ITER in that if the > Science Community and the Physics Community in particular paid more > attention to their own subject and had their "thinking caps on" and > had their "logical wits with them" they could do the physics and math > that would prove that ITER can only reach 67% breakeven. They could > prove the Fusion Barrier Principle exists and is true. I have spent 6 > years now on proving the FBP. But the physics community does not want > to listen, they want to turn a deaf and dumb ear to FBP. > The Physics Community wants to build ITER at the cost of 10-50 billion > dollars. > I have mixed feelings because maybe the human species is that stupid > and deaf and dumb that they require wasting $25 billion dollars and > finding out that they can only reach 67% breakeven. Which is testimony > to the fact that the human species is always propelled not by logic > and reason but rather instead by money greed. That instead of doing > the proper science first and then spending the money is rare. In the > case of building the hydrogen bomb it was Ulam that proved it was > theoretically possible first before money was massively spent. In the > case of Fusion tokamaks, no scientist except Archimedes Plutonium is > requiring that we do the Theoretical first before we spend billions of > dollars. > The mixed feelings I have is because after ITER is built and after > they *honestly* report the paltry 67% breakeven (I say honestly > because in big science projects such as ITER there is an overwhelming > urge to be dishonest in results in order to keep the billion dollar > pork barrel going). > So the mixed feelings I have is that after ITER proves itself to be a > dud with its 67% breakeven, that only then will the community of > physicists realize they are stupid people and that it is long past > time that they did the Theoretical Work (like Ulam did before the > hydrogen bomb was given the go ahead) of proving the Fusion Barrier > Principle FBP and declaring its truth and validity. > I have proved FBP in the past 6 years but no other scientist is > listening or paying attention. So, if ITER is built and when ITER > reports the mere 67% breakeven, then that is for me the final > EXPERIMENTAL proof that FBP is true and alive and is 67% breakeven. > The mixed feelings is that if humanity were really good at science, > good at logic, and is really a species of "wisdom". Then this species > would not be building a $50 billion machine over the next 10 years and > have skipped over something as CRucial and Vital and Important as > proving whether Fusion can exceed 67% breakeven and can exceed 100% > breakeven and can exceed (what is hoped for by politicians and general > public) of 105% or greater breakeven in order to construct a Fusion > Energy Society of the future. > I think maybe I am expecting too much out of the species Homosapiens > in that they would be a logical and scientific enough species to prove > or disprove FBP before they spent 10 years and $50 billion dollars. > But then again, one must always realize that this species required > almost 2,000 years to understand the Atomic theory of Democritus and > to realize that Earth and the SolarSystem are round and orbits the > Sun. So, to expect a species that takes 2,000 years to understand > round and not flat, is well into the mark of a "general dumbness" that > takes until 2015 and wasting $50 billion to understand and appreciate > a Fusion Barrier Principle. > Archimedes Plutonium > whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots > of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

  Response:

  Earlier this year I bought a Webster’s Dictionary because I found it too time consuming to look up words on the Internet and that it is faster by book. But I was not sure of what type of dictionary I should get and it seems as though I made the proper choice because this edition had an entry for "Barabbas" and now today satisfied me with an entry for "klutz". In the AP news was a bulletin about ITER, the big tokamak machine that is the successor of JET. Remember that JET reached 64% breakeven but the world record holder is not a tokamak but a muon catalyzed fusion experiment conducted by Nagamine in England where he reached 67% breakeven. AP news for the proposed ITER said this "France’s proposed site is in the southeastern town of Cadarache. Japan is promoting Rokkasho village on the main island’s northern tip." I have mixed feelings about building ITER. On the one hand I am confident that the FBP is true and that ITER will only reach 67% breakeven and that it is a dud of a science project to ever build because Muon catalyzed fusion has already reached 67% breakeven. In one vein I am disheartened by the building of ITER in that if the Science Community and the Physics Community in particular paid more attention to their own subject and had their "thinking caps on" and had their "logical wits with them" they could do the physics and math that would prove that ITER can only reach 67% breakeven. They could prove the Fusion Barrier Principle exists and is true. I have spent 6 years now on proving the FBP. But the physics community does not want to listen, they want to turn a deaf and dumb ear to FBP. The Physics Community wants to build ITER at the cost of 10-50 billion dollars. I have mixed feelings because maybe the human species is that stupid and deaf and dumb that they require wasting $25 billion dollars and finding out that they can only reach 67% breakeven. Which is testimony to the fact that the human species is always propelled not by logic and reason but rather instead by money greed. That instead of doing the proper science first and then spending the money is rare. In the case of building the hydrogen bomb it was Ulam that proved it was theoretically possible first before money was massively spent. In the case of Fusion tokamaks, no scientist except Archimedes Plutonium is requiring that we do the Theoretical first before we spend billions of dollars. The mixed feelings I have is because after ITER is built and after they *honestly* report the paltry 67% breakeven (I say honestly because in big science projects such as ITER there is an overwhelming urge to be dishonest in results in order to keep the billion dollar pork barrel going). So the mixed feelings I have is that after ITER proves itself to be a dud with its 67% breakeven, that only then will the community of physicists realize they are stupid people and that it is long past time that they did the Theoretical Work (like Ulam did before the hydrogen bomb was given the go ahead) of proving the Fusion Barrier Principle FBP and declaring its truth and validity. I have proved FBP in the past 6 years but no other scientist is listening or paying attention. So, if ITER is built and when ITER reports the mere 67% breakeven, then that is for me the final EXPERIMENTAL proof that FBP is true and alive and is 67% breakeven. The mixed feelings is that if humanity were really good at science, good at logic, and is really a species of "wisdom". Then this species would not be building a $50 billion machine over the next 10 years and have skipped over something as CRucial and Vital and Important as proving whether Fusion can exceed 67% breakeven and can exceed 100% breakeven and can exceed (what is hoped for by politicians and general public) of 105% or greater breakeven in order to construct a Fusion Energy Society of the future. I think maybe I am expecting too much out of the species Homosapiens in that they would be a logical and scientific enough species to prove or disprove FBP before they spent 10 years and $50 billion dollars. But then again, one must always realize that this species required almost 2,000 years to understand the Atomic theory of Democritus and to realize that Earth and the SolarSystem are round and orbits the Sun. So, to expect a species that takes 2,000 years to understand round and not flat, is well into the mark of a "general dumbness" that takes until 2015 and wasting $50 billion to understand and appreciate a Fusion Barrier Principle. Archimedes Plutonium whole entire Universe is just one big atom where dots of the electron-dot-cloud are galaxies

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  

• Solar radiation on tilted surfaces…

  Question:

  Energy-10 seems to have a lot of limits (eg no way to let warm air circulate between a living space and a sunspace during the day and let the sunspace get cold at night), so I’ve been exploring spreadsheet TMY2 simulations. Excel seems happy enough with 8760 rows, and likes angles in radians… If TMY2 data says Wh/m^2 of global (beam+diffuse) sun and 300 Wh/m^2 of diffuse sun falls on a horizontal surface in Phila between 1 and 2 PM on 1/12, and the ground reflectance is 0.6, how much falls on south, west, north, and east walls? Equation 6.22 on page 251 of Kreider and Rabl’s Heating and Cooling of Buildings (McGraw Hill, 2nd edition, 2002–discount copies available) says the amount of global sun that falls on a surface tilted up from the ground at an angle of Thetap degrees is Iglo,p = Idircos(Thetai)+IdifFsky+Iglo,horRhogFgrd,    where Idir is the direct radiation from the solar disk, and          Thetai is the (incidence) angle between the normal to the surface               and a line to the sun, and          Idif is the diffuse radiation from the isotropic sky, and          Fsky is the fraction of sky seen by the surface, and          Iglo,hor = Idircos(Thetas) + Idif (equation 6.23), and          Thetas is the zenith angle of the sun (0 if directly overhead), and          Rhog is the ground reflectance, and          Fgrd is the fraction of isotropic radiation reflected by the ground. Fsky = (1+cos(Thetap))/2 and Fgrd = (1-cos(Thetap))/2, so Fsky = Fgrd = 0.5 for vertical surfaces, and Iglo,p = Idircos(Thetai)+0.5Idif+0.5Iglo,horRhog (equation 6.24.) If Idif = 300 and Iglo,hor = 500 and Rhog = 0.6, Iglo,p = Idircos(Thetai)+300. Page 234 of the book says cos(Thetas) = cos(L)cos(d)cos(w)+sin(L)sin(d) (equation 6.5),    where L is the latitude (about 40 N for Phila), and          d is the declination, and          w is the hour angle. Equation 6.4 on page 234 says    sin(d) = -sin(23.45)cos((360(N+10))/365.25) on the Nth day of the year. On 1/12, N = 12, so sin(d) = -0.3978, and d = -21.70 degrees, which makes cos(Thetas) = 0.9291cos(40)cos(w)-0.3978sin(40)             = 0.7660cos(w)-0.2376, Equation 6.6 on page 234 says w = 360(Tsol-12h)/24h, where Tsol is the solar time. Ignoring the equation of time, and assuming Phila is near the center of its standard time zone, Tsol = 14, so w = 30 degrees, which makes cos(Thetas) = 0.7660cos(30)-0.2376 = 0.4258, so Thetas = 64.8 degrees, (ie the sun is 90-64.8 = 25.2 degrees above the horizon), If Iglo,hor = 500 = Idircos(Thetas)+Idif = 0.4258Idir+300, Idir = 469.7 Wh/m^2, so Iglo,p = Idircos(Thetai)+300 = 469.7cos(Thetai)+300 Wh/m^2.           (This is really irradiance Hglo,p, vs radiation Iglo,p in W/m^2.) Equation 6.10 on page 238 says cos(Thetai) = sin(Thetas)sin(Thetap)cos(Phis-Phip)+cos(Thetas)cos(Thetap)             = sin(Thetas)cos(Phis-Phip) for vertical surfaces (equation 6.11),    where Phip is the azimuth angle of the surface, and          Phis is the azimuth angle of the sun. Equation 6.8 on page 238 says          sin(Phis) = cos(d)sin(w)/sin(Thetas)                    = cos(-21.7)sin(30)/sin(64.8) = 0.513, so          Phis = +30.89 degrees (plus degrees are west of south.) So cos(Thetai) = sin(64.8)cos(30.89-Phip)                = 0.9048cos(30.89-Phip) for vertical surfaces. From Figure 6.5b on page 237, Phip = 0, 90, 180, and 270 degrees for S, W, N, and E walls, so    cos(Thetai) = 0.7765, 0.4645, -0.7765, and -0.4645 for SWNE walls,    and Thetai = 39.06, 62.32, 140.9, and 117.7 degrees for SWNE walls. It looks like north and east walls get no direct sun at 2 PM (we should really be using 1:30 PM, if the sun arrived between 1 and 2) since the incidence angles for north and east walls are greater than 90 degrees. so Iglo,p = 469.7cos(Thetai)+300           = 664.7, 218.2, 300, and 300 Wh/m^2, unless I made a mistake somewhere. How do we tell? Maybe compare with Energy-10… Nick

  Response:

  >If TMY2 data says Wh/m^2 of global (beam+diffuse) sun and 300 Wh/m^2 of >diffuse sun falls on a horizontal surface in Phila between 1 and 2 PM on >1/12, and the ground reflectance is 0.6, how much falls on south, west, >north, and east walls? >…Iglo,p = 469.7cos(Thetai)+300 >          = 664.7, 218.2, 300, and 300 Wh/m^2, >unless I made a mistake somewhere…

  A more accurate and straightforward calculation: 10 PI=4*ATN(1) 20 IGLOH=500′global horizontal irradiance (Wh/m^2) 30 IDIF=300′diffuse horizontal irradiance (Wh/m^2) 40 L=PI*39/180′Phila latitude (39 N) 50 T=13.5’solar time (1:30 PM EST) 60 N=12+T/24′day of year 70 X=-SIN(PI*23.45/180)*COS(2*PI*(N+10)/365.25) 80 D=ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1))’sin^-1(x) 90 PRINT"Declination",180*D/PI’declination (degrees) 100 W=2*PI*(T-12)/24′hour angle (radians) 110 X=COS(L)*COS(D)*COS(W)+SIN(L)*SIN(D) 120 THETAS=-ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1))+PI/2′cos^-1(x) 130 PRINT"Zenith angle",180*THETAS/PI’zenith angle (degrees) 140 IDIR=(IGLOH-IDIF)/COS(THETAS)’direct irradiance (Wh/m^2) 150 X=COS(D)*SIN(W)/SIN(THETAS) 160 PHIS=ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1))cos^-1(x) 170 PRINT"Sun azimuth",180*PHIS/PI’azimuth angle of sun (degrees) 180 PRINT"Idirect",IDIR 190 PRINT" Surface       Incidence     Surface" 200 PRINT" azimuth       angle         irradiation 210 FOR PHIPD=0 TO 270 STEP 90′azimuth angle of plane (degrees) 220 PHIP=PI*PHIPD/180 230 X=SIN(THETAS)*COS(PHIS-PHIP) 240 THETAI=-ATN(X/SQR(-X*X+1))+PI/2′incidence angle to surface (radians) 250 IF THETAI>=PI/2 THEN THETAI=PI/2 260 RHOG=0.6′ground reflectance 270 IGLOP=IDIR*COS(THETAI)+IDIF/2+IGLOH*RHOG/2′irradiation on surface (Wh/m^2) 280 PRINT PHIPD,180*THETAI/PI,IGLOP 290 NEXT PHIPD Declination   -21.61381 degrees Zenith angle   64.17039 degrees Sun azimuth    23.28255 degrees Idirect        459.0354 Wh/m^2 Surface       Incidence     Surface azimuth       angle         irradiation (degrees)     (degrees)     (Wh/m^2) 0             34.22897      679.5287 90            69.159        463.3137 180           90            300 270           90            300 Nick

  Response:

  - Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->If TMY2 data says Wh/m^2 of global (beam+diffuse) sun and 300 Wh/m^2 of >diffuse sun falls on a horizontal surface in Phila between 1 and 2 PM on >1/12, and the ground reflectance is 0.6, how much falls on south, west, >north, and east walls? > Declination   -21.61381 degrees > Zenith angle   64.17039 degrees > Sun azimuth    23.28255 degrees > Idirect        459.0354 Wh/m^2 > Surface       Incidence     Surface > azimuth       angle         irradiation > (degrees)     (degrees)     (Wh/m^2) > 0             34.22897      679.5287 > 90            69.159        463.3137 > 180           90            300 > 270           90            300 > Nick

  Happy holidays! So the north wall receives almost half the energy that the south does at that time? My gut says "how could this be?" but judging from what I’ve put into it, it can’t be trusted… Alec

  Response:

  No comments energy site - solar energy
  
  
• « Older Entries